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quincy	OK gang...The rest of the story.....The proper sized heater hose with p/n 4815542 finally arrived late Monday, the 24th of April. Took 5 days, not counting the weekend. The mechanic buttoned up the car and she is now home. I was charged an additional $82.50 due to "Extended Lift Time due to customers incorrect parts"...it is what it is. Now, I have the OEM timing belt in my possession and it looks to be in good condition, but is 18 years old with 24K miles on it. I have reached out to PHIL2237 via p/m to see if he will perform another burst test on my old belt. More samples equal better statistics. The water pump was weeping behind the front pulley seal. The main water pump gasket/seal was NOT leaking. As I was heading out the door the mechanic stated that the hoses under the intake manifold were not replaced because we did not discuss that part of the job. I was not aware of any other hoses, in particular any under the intake manifold. I do not recall anyone discussing the replacement of those particular hoses. Any comments? Thanks for listening....good luck with your project!!
robin	Quincy. Glad your back up and running. Sounds like everything eventually went well. robin
RDinTN	Good job getting the work done. Sorry it was a PITA that cost you extra. The mechanic, understanding the scope of what you wanted to accomplish, might well have shown more professionalism (courtesy) by advising you up front on associated requirements/ possibilities rather than giving you the ‘gotcha news’ as you’re headed out the door. IMHO. This is the kinda crap that invariably happens at a dealership (or similar set-up) where there’s a Service Mgr running interference for a faceless crew.
phil2237	Been on vacation, sent my address to you by PM. Will be glad to test it for you.
phil2237	Lou, Received your belt Wednesday, Tested this morning. Your belt did look dried out compared with several I have tested. Your belt started to tear at 110 pounds which was a little higher than the rest I have tested. Do you have the aluminum engine or the cast iron one In your Prowler ? The odd part about these timing belts is they all seem to shred & tear right where the Chrysler Logo is. I have put belts on in all positions and the same result.
drbutton	I just had the timing belt, water pump, and whatever else comes in the Mopar kit replaced on my car. This was done by a Chrysler dealer for just under $1k. My car is a '99 with about 35k miles. Unfortunately, they did not save the old belt for analysis. Thank you for the warning on this issue.
phil2237	From the tests I have done on these timing belts, it seems like it is a VERY good idea to replace them now after all these years if you haven't already. If anyone else would like their belt tested, Just PM me for my address and I would be happy to test it for you. Seems age does play a big factor in these belts.
quincy	quote: Originally posted by phil2237: From the tests I have done on these timing belts, it seems like it is a VERY good idea to replace them now after all these years if you haven't already. If anyone else would like their belt tested, Just PM me for my address and I would be happy to test it for you. Seems age does play a big factor in these belts. Phil, your a good man! Thank you for helping out with this experiment / test procedure. I have a 99 which has the all aluminum engine. It spent two years of it's life in Scottsdale Az. Then on to Utica, Michigan for 13 years, then the last 3 years in Crossville, Tn. She is not driven in the winter months, and is currently stored from Nov-Apr. So, she has spent most of her life in a mild type climate. I believe the east / west coast / and desert / Fla. area cars suffer a tad more from heat and salt air than the cold weather cars. Just some additional food for thought. The timing belt kit I purchased from Dayco stated if you did not know when to change your timing belt the industry standard was " 6 years or 60,000 miles, which ever comes first." I agree with your statements in regards to changing the timing belt. Pay me now, or pay me a lot more later! As a few more owners jump on the R&R wagon please try to save your old belt for burst testing by Phil. So here is where we stand today: New belt > 300 lbs force with no sign of distress. 19K mile belt: 78 lbs force = tear/break. 56K mile belt: 84 lbs force = tear/break. 24K mile belt: 110 lbs force = tear/break. 13K mile belt: 137 lbs force = tear/break. Jan 2018 Most thing in common with this group is age. All were > than 16 years old. Anyone out there care to run some Failure Mode statistics on our small sample size? I'll run the numbers when we get additional tests ran. Normally you need at least 25 samples for meaningful statistics. This message has been edited by quincy on 01-12-2018 at 04:07 PM
Richnew41	Just an fyi...I would like to add to quincy last post/list as the more info we have the better in making decision on timing belt changes. Plus I'm just curious on how mine fairs... Phil gave me the ok and is gracious enough to test my old belt. For the record its from an 02' with 13k miles. Belt was mailed yesterday and is on its way to Phil.
quincy	quote: Originally posted by Richnew41: Just an fyi...I would like to add to quincy last post/list as the more info we have the better in making decision on timing belt changes. Plus I'm just curious on how mine fairs... Phil gave me the ok and is gracious enough to test my old belt. For the record its from an 02' with 13k miles. Belt was mailed yesterday and is on its way to Phil. Thank you! The more test data we have the better. We appreciate your assistance on this project! Remember, start up torque will always be higher than running torque due to the resistance in the valve train components. If we start to see failures, I believe we will see them at start up condition.
phil2237	Rich, I tested your belt today. Your belt had the BEST results so far. The belt STARTED to TEAR at 137 pounds. Finally snapped at 146 pounds. Your belt was from a 2002 with 13 thousand miles. The belt was in very good shape for the age. The belt broke at the same spot as the others, right where the two ends are connected. The belt had no marks or any rubber missing.
401KAT	The ultimate test would be (although not really feasible) to see if the new belt strength reduces on miles or age...Like taking one of these 2-3000 mile cars and removing ....to see what 18 years under tension did....I (as a gearhead) would be intrigued....jim
DublinOH	I apologize if this has been covered, but has anyone tested a new belt to see what the tensile strength is?
quincy	Yes..posted above. Greater than 300 pounds of force applied to a new belt. No distress created. No tearing. No damage. If you have an old belt please send it in for testing. It is important we collect the data. Chrysler has not....
phil2237	quote: Originally posted by DublinOH: I apologize if this has been covered, but has anyone tested a new belt to see what the tensile strength is? I did test two new belts. The machine I use is actually for bending custom exhaust pipes, I put smooth round steel wheels to test these belts. The gauge on this machine goes up to 600 pounds. Both belts I tested would NOT break after pegging the needle. When I take the slack out of the belt I am testing, there is about 150 pounds pressure, and then I start adding more pressure until they snap. Most survive in the 75 to 120 pound range. So if you add the 150 to the pressure it takes to break, I am actually in the 250 to 300 pounds of pressure. Both NEW belts survived without any damage. Both belts were tossed after testing.
RPL	Phil, Thank you very much for both testing and reporting the results. A clear pattern is beginning to emerge.
ed monahan	I am having mine changed on Monday on the '02 Candy with 75,000 miles. Is Phil still doing this? I am probably going to have the other two changed also. The '02 is the newest, of course. I have an '01 and a '97 also. I am having a few other things done also, just as a precaution. The guy is a Prowler Tech who opened his own shop locally. On a side note, I just noticed that either the washer or cotter key in the new ball joint is rusting onto the chrome so I guess it is not aluminum. I will check on that Monday to see what I need to do to change it. Or they can do it while it is on the lift.
padroo	ed, they could install a stainless steel washer and carter key and they wouldn't rust. quote: Originally posted by ed monahan: I am having mine changed on Monday on the '02 Candy with 75,000 miles. Is Phil still doing this? I am probably going to have the other two changed also. The '02 is the newest, of course. I have an '01 and a '97 also. I am having a few other things done also, just as a precaution. The guy is a Prowler Tech who opened his own shop locally. On a side note, I just noticed that either the washer or cotter key in the new ball joint is rusting onto the chrome so I guess it is not aluminum. I will check on that Monday to see what I need to do to change it. Or they can do it while it is on the lift.
ed monahan	Thanks Padroo. I guess that has to be torqued. I no longer have a torque wrench and I forgot to mention the problem to Ernie. Hopefully I can find what I need before they get finished, otherwise I will have to make other plans to have it done. A stainless metric castle nut is probably not a common item, but I might get lucky and find a couple early on Monday.
akboy	Just got test results from Phil Manzak (Phil2237) on my Timing belt: Warmed the belt up to 110* to simulate in service. Put it on the test machine and it broke at 76#, at about 4"'s from the seam. They usually break at the seam. 2001 Prowler with 34,000 miles. Glad I listened to my inner voice and put it off any longer. Keep up the research Phil, and Thanks. PS: He said average used belt is 200-250#'s.
ed monahan	Phil tested mine. Broke at 71 #, 2002 with almost 75,000 miles. Think about getting YOURS done soon.